INT: So calling your attention to 2003, 2003 was a convention year. You were the Fifth Vice-President going into that convention. Can you tell me a little bit about what happened relating to your career at the Guild, you know, in the period leading up to the convention?

MA: Well, for a couple of years, a number of sort of senior members of the Guild had mentioned to me would I ever be interested in, you know, running for office. You know, running as vice president, running for president. I mean, Jack Shea came to some event I did for the Guild about Sundance, and he said, "You'd be a good president." And then Gil Cates said the same thing. He said, you know, "You should be president of this Guild." And so, you know, I thought it was ridiculous. I mean, I am English and hardly been around at all. I'd only been on any of these committees for a couple of years at the most, so I thought this is... anyway, I mean, it was a dream for me. I mean, I would wake up in the night both thrilled and panicking at the thought of it. But so I didn't take it that seriously; although, I thought I was very flattered that they mentioned it to me. So around the period of, you know, 2003, as we were moving up to the convention, this began to happen more and more. Ed Sherin asked me, "Why don't you run for it," and whatever. And things seemed to be a bit topsy-turvy, and so I decided, well, I would run. Why not? If people of this weight wanted me to run, I would run. But I had no idea really what would happen. So I remember I was shooting an HBO pilot at the time, and I had a list of all the members of the council and everything, and so while I was shooting, I rang them all up and asked, "So I'm thinking of running for president. Would you support me?" And a lot of them said yes. Some asked me why, and I said, "Well, you know, I'm not getting any younger, and, you know, I love the Guild, and I'd like to, you know, have a high position in the Guild." And, you know, it got a little heated towards the time of, you know, the actual election, but I did get elected president. And I was kind of stunned. I mean, it had all happened so fast. You know, I'd been at best a kind of lowly member of the council in 2001, and then two years later, I was gonna be president. So it was almost unbelievably fast, but things were changing, and they seemed to want fresh blood.

INT: So let's talk about the presidency a little bit. Before I do, though, so when you ran for president, do you recall who ran for national vice president? [MA: No.] Well, I'll help you along. So Ed Sherin had been the national vice president. [MA: Oh, well, it was Steven then.] But you came in, and Steven ran with you as national vice president.

MA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so another reason for me sort of embracing the idea that I might be president was the fact that Steven Soderbergh, who we'd been joined at the hip for the last three years, through the indies and all this, Ed Sherin was stepping down as the East Coast president, and Steven was gonna take the job of running the East Coast. And I thought, well, that would be great. [INT: So here it was, this Independent Directors Committee that was supposed to be a transmission belt of new people.] What were we doing? Getting above ourselves, yeah. [INT: Here comes Soderbergh and Apted.] That's right. And it was interesting, because we used to, I remember, before either of us were on the council, we used to go in and give a report to the council or even to the board maybe, which was pretty awe-inspiring. And we always worked hard and really prepared ourselves and were a double act, and I think we did impress people that we knew what we were talking about, and we had energy and youth on our side or whatever. So I suppose that had already gone into place a bit, that he and I were a sort of double act. And I did mention it to him, and I said, "What would happen, you know, if I ran for president?" And he said, "Well, I think you should." He said, "I'd love to run for president, but I'm, you know, not gonna leave New York. You know, I'm not gonna come here." And the fact that he said to me that he would really love to be president made me think, well, why don't I run for it? So it was a kind of relationship between the two of us that kind of pushed me along a bit.

INT: And the Secretary-Treasurer when you became president was Gil [Gil Cates], right? [MA: Gil, yeah.] Tell me a little bit about your and Gil and Steven's [Steven Soderbergh] relationship, you know, and how you thought about it when you became president.

MA: Well, I mean, Gil was iconic in the Guild. Well, I mean, he'd been president nearly a decade and a half before, but he was still incredibly active and still your closest colleague and everything, and negotiated together. So I mean, Gil was, you know, you know, as I said, was a very powerful person. But he seemed to gravitate towards Steven and myself. I mean, you know, he would ask our opinions and stuff, and you sort of got the feeling that you were being drawn into it, and the same with Ed Sherin. You felt they wanted us in a way to be part of it, but maybe they were, you know, looking in other directions for leadership. And so, you know, that was--and Gil showed quite a lot of interest in me and what I thought about things and what I did, and we worked together on certain things and whatever. But he was always very encouraging. And he, you know, he actually asked me face to face. We went to a concert together, and he said, "Do you want to be president of the Guild?" I said, "What?" He said, "Would you like to be some time?" And I said, "Yeah, I would." So there was a little kind of bond between us, that we were active and whatever.

INT: Well, I'm gonna, you know, just continuing on the presidency. Did you sort of understand or believe when you became president that you were essentially going to have an informal cabinet?

MA: Yes. It was interesting, when I was running for the job, which was--it was quite a short time, other people came to talk to me. Gene [Gene Reynolds] did, and Gene said, you know, "I think you'd do well,” and, you know, “If it works out, spend a bit of time with me." And Jack [Jack Shea] too. I mean, people... I got the feeling that I was gonna need help. I knew I was gonna need help because I was pretty ignorant. But I knew there were plenty of powerful helpers who were interested in making it work for me. And when I did become president, Gene gave me a couple of pages of very helpful, you know, hints, and Ed Sherin too. So I knew I wasn't gonna be stuck up there alone. I mean I knew I had a big, powerful team. Forget you and Warren [Warren Adler] and all the others, but of past Directors or luminaries in the... I believe they were attracted to me to doing it. So it wasn't that I was some kind of young turk trying to come in and push himself forward, you know, that I had a serious attitude towards it, and I really didn't know what I would be doing. And so, you know, I knew I had their support, and I'll never forget ringing you [Jay Roth] up the week before the election and saying, "If something happens on Saturday, can I come and see you on Monday?" You said to me, you said, "I'm available for any member of the DGA on Monday who wishes to come and see me." So, I mean, you were kind of very tactful and whatever, but I had a feeling that you too were behind... because, I mean, we haven't mentioned it, but I was on a lot of committees. I remember violence committees and things like that, when I was meeting all these people, and it was clear to people that I was very interested in different aspects of the Guild. I was on a lot of committees, not just the council and all that. But I did get the feeling that I was gonna be well protected. And that since it was not a happy time to necessarily be... since it looked as though the WGA was gonna go on strike and all this kind of stuff, I knew it could be a tumultuous time. And so I knew that there were a lot of the senior members at the Guild who'd done the job already, who would be helpful.

INT: So let's talk about, and we'll come back to this when we finish the presidency bit, let's talk about the role of the president in the Guild 'cause there's a lot of confusion out there about what is the role of the president and what is the relationship of the president to the Executive Director. Could you talk about both of those things?

MA: It became pretty clear to me watching you [Jay Roth] and Gil [Gil Cates], whatever, you know, that it was a partnership. I mean I had opinions, but I wasn’t going to initiate policy. And I could see how powerful you, and Warren and people like that were in initiating stuff and getting stuff done. And I thought my role would be of a supporting nature. That I would protect the interest of the Director, and also cut into that was the fact that I wanted to keep working as a Director. I didn't want to stop work even if I was president of the Guild because of I just think being on the job, you know what's going on. So I never thought I was gonna sit in an office here month after month, trying to run the Guild and doing that, that I felt that you and the rest of the staff were highly efficient, highly successful, and that I would be there as the link between the... along with the board and along with the councils and all that, I would be the link between, along with the board, and along with the councils and all that, I would be the link between your group, the organizational group, and the Directors, the working group. And I always understood that 'til the very end. I mean I always felt that. I never felt it was my place to tell the management how to do things. If I had opinions about it or if I had particular things that I wanted to see done, that would happen and all that, and everybody was responsive, but I could see there was a distinct, you know, between as it were, the presidency and the staff as it were. Not to demean it, but they did the legwork, they ran the Guild, and I was the link between them and the membership.

INT: Some people described it as the Executive Director and professional staff operate the Guild and that the president is the chairman of the board, the non-operating chairman. Do you think that's...

MA: Well, I don't know this kind of language. I've never been in a business. I've never been in a boardroom. But, yes, I completely grasped the fact that you [Jay Roth], the management, ran the board, and we were the membership, and I was the head of the membership, and I was to make sure that the membership were properly informed, and I informed you what little I knew about what the membership was. But I definitely got the feeling it was a highly professional organization, paid a decent amount of money, working seven days a week to keep the thing going.

INT: When there were policy decisions that had to be made, did you feel that... what was your experience with respect to any major policy decision that had to be made?

MA: Well, you know, I know I had to make decisions, but I knew that I should listen carefully to all the proposals being made, all the changes, and there were a lot of changes going on during my presidency, you know, that I should listen to them, understand them, talk to you about them, and make sure they got passed on in the right manner. I mean I only had one really powerful decision to make. You know, it was do we go into negotiations when the Writers Guild [WGA] was on strike, when I had to say, yes, we do. Other than that, I just thought it was part of the flow of running the Guild, that the professional staff did the legwork, came up with ideas, presented us with ideas 'cause that's what they were doing 24/7, and it was up to us to make sure that they were well presented to the membership, and the membership understood what was going on.

INT: So before we talk about 2004, but tell me this, so during your first term, among other things, you made the first few episodes of the HBO series ROME. [MA: Yes.] And you made that where? [MA: In Rome.] So how do you function as president and be outside the United States for... this was months and months and months.

MA: Yeah, I was out of... in my first year as president, I was out of the country for six months in Rome, doing ROME. But you [Jay Roth] and I had a good relationship. You came out to Rome to visit me. I came back now and again. There was always dialogue going on. But I didn't feel I had to be here all the time. I felt that a good part of my life, the money-earning part of my life, was keep working. And the two had to, you know, that the two things had to gel, and if I had the choose between taking a job or, you know, and in fact, shortchanging the Guild, I would shortchange the Guild and make sure that it was in good hands, that someone, Soderbergh [Steven Soderbergh] or Taylor [Taylor Hackford] or someone like that, was representing me. I would go and do the job. I didn't feel the need to be here all the time. [INT: And if there was a policy decision, an important policy decision to be made, the Guild came to you.] Yeah. You came over or whatever. I mean it was an understanding. We never even talked about it. It was always an instinctive position that you and I fell into. You would be running the Guild and bringing ideas to me and whatever and seeking decisions from me and approvals from me, and I would carry on with my job and give as much, my money-earning job, and give as much time as I could to being here and being at meetings and flying in for board meetings and stuff like that. Well, I was never hung out to dry. Things never went on that I didn't know about, and nor did I ever interfere with you.

INT: Calling your attention to the 2004 Writers Guild negotiations, Michael, what do you recall the issues were for the Writers Guild in those negotiations?

MA: Well, their issues seemed to be at odds in a sense with ours. They seemed very concerned to keep DVD a rich source of income to them, home video a rich source of income. And issues that we thought were more important like health and to an extent, expanding the industry with reality television, they didn't seem interested in that to the same extent, and I thought that was very kind of shortsighted. [INT: And did we meet with them during the course of 2004 to talk about their negotiations?] We met a lot with them because I think we liked them. I mean Gil [Gil Cates] and I used to meet them quite a bit. I mean, we were very respectful of them, and, you know, Wells is sort of legend in the industry. So anything he says is worth listening to. But you did get the feeling talking to Dan [Dan Petrie] and John [John Wells], you know, that they were under pressure from membership to push home video, and we weren't. We were concerned, very concerned, with health. This was the best opportunity we had to try and improve our healthcare, and we wanted to take that. [INT: And we didn't think there was the money in the deal to accomplish both. Is that right?] No. Yeah, I mean, yes, I mean, I learned that. You know, I learned it's not just a question of what issues are important. It's really an issue of how much they cost, and it seemed to me that asking for the kind of healthcare plan that we were asking for, which they should have been asking for, and a revision of home video was way out of reality in terms of money.

INT: So in 2004, did the Writers' contract expire and they worked without a contract?

MA: Yeah, I mean, they were negotiating, you know, for a long time. I mean I didn't even quite understand what they were doing. I imagine they were just going for a bit and then go off. There didn't seem to be much urgency about it at all. You know, subsequently, it was a very urgent moment when someone goes in, you know, to negotiate, but they seemed to be kind of taking a very casual, long-winded way about doing it, and we wanted to get going with our stuff.

INT: Did you meet with them at some point in time and discuss whether the DGA would go in and negotiate while they were still negotiating?

MA: Well, yes, towards the end, when they'd been negotiating, quote/unquote, "for months." You know, and it was done in a very kind of careful way by John [John Wells], and I remember Gil [Gil Cates] and I, we sat with John [John Wells] and Dan [Dan Petrie], and they said, you know, "We'll back away. Why don't you go in and negotiate and see what you get and see how we can in fact use that to re-galvanize our negotiations?" But it was clear that they wanted us to go in. [INT: Was there any discussion about what priority we would give to home video if we went in?] I think we were honest about it. I think we thought from where we were concerned; it was sort of secondary or third importance. We were very, very exercised. You know, and healthcare is a very big deal, and it's nothing... you're talking about families and all this sort of stuff, that I think we weren't at all sidelined by, you know, DVDs or whatever. I think our agenda was clear, that we had to get health.

INT: So the DGA went in and negotiated. Is that correct? [MA: Yeah, yeah.] And then we make a deal.

MA: We made a deal. And it was, you know, it was very interesting for me because I had very little to do with it. You know, you and Gil [Gil Cates] ran it, and Warren [Warren Adler] and the staff. I mean that was a brilliant illustration to me of the real division of the Guild. You were the guys that planned it all, there were a lot of members on the negotiating committee, it was 60, 70 people, but you guys, the staff, did all the heavy lifting and did all the directing of it. And, you know, it all ran incredibly smoothly.

INT: While you weren't at the table, were you briefed by Gil [Gil Cates] and I [Jay Roth]?

MA: Yeah, I was, but, I mean, I was briefed on the phone. I wasn't down there listening. I mean, not that I was lazy or anything, but it seemed we had lots of meetings before it started, and we knew exactly, you know, the board and the councils and knew exactly what we were negotiating for, and I just wasn't either interested or involved in the minutia of how it was done. I knew what was going on, but I was only getting a broad picture, and that seems to me to be the way it should be. [INT: I guess to lead you a little, isn't sort of the DGA approach that the president is sort of in a negotiation when you have committee chairs, that the president is sort of the last toll on the bridge?] Yeah, I think it's good. I mean there's a definite order of seniority, which doesn't have any relation to your position. I was there if there was gonna be a big decision to be made. God forbid if it all fell apart. What are we gonna do? I was there as kind of the backstop.

INT: So, Michael, after the 2004 negotiations, were there any conversations or discussions that ensued between the DGA and the Writers Guild?

MA: Yes. I mean, the immediate response from the Writers Guild, you know, when they went in and did their deal was that, you know, we had shortchanged them. So since we liked them, you know, we said, "Well, why don't we try and work together? Why don't we just do it, get together, Gil and myself and John [John Wells] and Dan [Dan Petrie]." And so we did. We set up a couple of meetings. We decided to kind of each take a topic and do some work on it and then meet with them, and then they would take a topic, and then they would meet with us. So we decided that we would take a hard look at home video, DVD. So we did research. We got some experts in, and we presented it to them. And what we presented to them, it was a pretty detailed... we didn't skint on it. What emerged from that research was that home video was retreating, that it was not active enough, that it wasn't a good thing to be investing in. [INT: What was their reaction to that presentation?] Well, I think they thought we were probably just trying to substantiate what we were telling them before. It's a big income for us, but it was declining, and they didn't seem to want to accept that. So then we went some time later, and they gave a presentation on international, which frankly, was very, very light, really didn't see much work had gone into it and really didn't tell us much that we didn't know. But what they had to say really didn't seem as though they had spent much time working on it. So we sort of let it die.

INT: So before we jump into media, you know, meanwhile, you know, back at the ranch, other things are happening at the Guild. And so during your first term, you established the Diversity Task Force. [MA: Yeah.] Could you talk a little about that?

MA: Well, I was involved in diversity quite early on, again, because, you know, it seemed just indecent the way that the industry was dealing with racism and opportunity and whatever. So and I used to go to these meetings. We set it up with staff and did research on it and had a whole policy of going around to all the television companies and the film companies and making our case that diversity is something that we're way behind for an industry that, you know, speaks to people a lot about important things and unimportant things, entertainment, whatever, but we don't have a very good record with diversity. It's pathetic. When I went to some of these meetings as president to sort of add some weight to it, not that it wasn't well presented by Bryan [G. Bryan Unger] and people like that, but I went to these meetings and said, "This is something that, you know, we really want to get interested in, and we want your help, and we want to have contact about it." And, you know, it turned out to be a much longer job than my second term would, you know, went on forever and is still going on. But diversity was something that we wanted to bring to the industry's attention and, from our point of view, to management's attention that we were going to look into this and try and do some research on it and see if there's a way mutually, not that we were blaming them, you know, but we were probably as bad as they were. But, you know, we think this is a very important public issue, which between us, the management and us, that we should be dealing with together.

INT: So internationally, you took a great deal of interest in what was going on internationally and being not an American... [MA: British.] Can you talk a little about, you know, the international stuff during your period of time and your interest in that?

MA: Yeah, well, I did a movie called AMAZING GRACE during when all these negotiation things were going on, and I went to England for about four or five months to do it, and using an English Crew, and I was shocked by how low their spirits were about the trades union there. They were getting no representation whatsoever. They were bullied around. I was flabbergasted. I mean, I'd been here now for a couple of decades, and I got used to the kind of facilities and deals that the DGA did, but they had nothing. So I said, "We've got to do something about this." You know, I'd been lucky. I got out, and I'm doing well in America. And so with Kathy Garmezy and some others, we set up a big meeting. We invited 35 of the leading film/television Directors into a meeting to discuss that and to discuss generally the working conditions in the United Kingdom, that they had no representation at all from any active trade union. And so we started a whole series of conversations about how we could assist them, how we could, you know, give them some of our expertise and experience to organize themselves. And, you know, that was a long job, and that was a job that my heart was in because I just felt these people had been left behind. But anyway, it sort of suggested to us the kind of international aspect of our job. You know, a lot of foreign Directors come here and work and do well, and our countries, Canada, Australia, Island, they have Directors groups and things like that. Why don't we try and internationalize it a bit and at least spend some money working on it and also having at least an annual meeting when we go to one of the countries and we all sit down and we share notes and talk about the future and all this? And, you know, we tried it, and we did it, and we did it 'til quite recently, but we kind of got stuck somewhere between, you know, the English element and the American element, and it sort of ran its course somewhat. But we were very interested in it and whether we are so powerful throughout the world. So many of our members are foreign and from other unions there, you know, I don't know whether we could ever be seen as anything other than the big game in town. You know, whether there was ever any other chance of a sense of equality between, you know, the various countries. But anyway, we did it. We did it for a number of years, long after I had left the presidency. But it was a real effort to try and broaden out the vision of Directors' rights wherever they work in the world. So wherever you make a picture or whatever, you get certain basic rights.

INT: So going back to the period after these meetings with the Writers Guild that had not worked out, you started to mention that, you know, new media had really started to come onto the agenda. And so what did you and the leadership decide to do with respect to new media?

MA: Well, you know, the management knew, and we just decided, and we approved that we would start investing a lot of money in it, of really doing our homework, trying to be on the cutting edge of it. Hiring experts to come in to take different branches of the new media, 'cause it was very all over the place and what was gonna work and what wasn't gonna work, and to really invest time and money in it and try to get to the bottom of it all because it did seem this is where possibly the future could lie. And the world of the Internet, it was going all over the world, so why wouldn't it be important to us? So I remember we had a big retreat in Santa Monica when all the senior members of the Guild, senior directors of the Guild, showed up, and we brought in a number of experts who made presentations to us. Some of those experts were brilliant, and some weren't so brilliant, but that was the beginning, that was the birth of what became for the management, for you [Jay Roth], as a kind of two to three year guidance. I mean we kept this going. As I said, we spent time and money getting information. Some of it was wasted. Some of it was very valuable. But we tried to make ourselves as knowledgeable as we could about the technology of new media and the speed of it and what was going quicker than the other. So we, because we felt very strongly that that was going to be, other than health, a big infusion of resources into the future.

INT: So there is not a lot known about this retreat you mentioned. What year did that occur? Do you recall? [MA: 2006.] And this was a multi-day retreat? [MA: Yeah.] And so what was the product? What was decided by the leadership who came to this, you know, retreat?

MA: Well, the whole idea of the retreat was to have... I remember we arrived on the Friday, early evening, so we all had dinner together, and then we worked all day Saturday, and then we left on Saturday evening. But I think what it did was... and we listened to, as I say, these experts speaking, in general terms, not very precise ones, but it gave us all a feeling that this was really important, that this was the future. If we were gonna prepare ourselves for 2007, for the next negotiations, this is what we should be seriously thinking about, and we didn't know enough about it. And some of it was very confusing, but nonetheless, we felt, and I know you [Jay Roth] led this charge, that we should learn as much as we can about new media, and by all means, pass it on to the other guilds. Not to aren't we clever? Look what we've done. But we felt this was a brave new world for the industry and that we had better know what's going on and how best to monetize that's going on.

INT: So going back to the retreat, which was... when was this in '06? [MA: May 2006.] And the people who were there, was this from all over the country?

MA: Yes, apart from the people in Los Angeles, I know Ed Sherin came, and Steven Soderbergh who had gone back to live in New York, he came in too. So all the kind of senior members of the management and of the membership were there. It was about 30 of us. [INT: So coming out of the retreat, was there a charge?] Yes. I mean, it was when we came out of the retreat, I mean, it was both exciting and scary because we'd had some presentations, and most of it we didn't understand. We didn't really know what was going on in the technical world, and we knew that we better find out. And so whatever it cost and however long it took, we had to educate ourselves in this because it was pretty clear that this was gonna be the foundation of the next negotiation. And we also agreed that we would share all this information, that this was an industry matter. It wasn't a DGA matter. It wasn't us being smart or whatever. It was something that we felt probably other guilds like us were ignorant of what was going on, and management probably wasn't ignorant of what was going on. And so we had better create a level playing field by doing all this research, as long as it took, and sharing it with the other guilds.

INT: So we went forward, and did you meet with the other guilds?

MA: So yeah, after we'd absorbed the retreat, we decided that we would share this with the guilds, and the first step was for me to go and have lunch with the other guilds, and I went to have lunch first with SAG, with Doug Allen and Alan Rosenberg, who frankly didn't seem much interested in it. I mean they still seemed to want to go back to the days of DVD and whatever. I didn't get any response out of them. I mean, they weren't rude or anything, but they seemed not particularly engaged. They had other things on their mind. And then I had lunch with Mr. Verrone, with Patric Verrone, and I said to him, you know, "What we're doing is we're looking into the technology, and we're looking into the whole kind of the business, the way that technology is dominating the business and how much the studios are spending on this sort of stuff." And he said, "Oh, really?" I said, "Well, yes, because, you know, we're doing this because we need to know about what they know and what they're doing and what they're getting up to." And he turned to me, and he said, "Why?" I said, "Well, because we're gonna negotiate with them. We want to know what the playing field is." And he said, "Look, it's simple. They've got all the money, and we want that money," and that was the end of that.